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Author Topic: The dead money pool  (Read 1679 times)
HollowOak
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« on: July 13, 2008, 08:32:15 PM »

Every time I look at my Prosper account this irritates me anew.



See that nice (nearly round) $5,000 account value?  Well, that's bogus. Complete bullcrap. I remember the early days, when pensioner still gave interviews and posted in the (old) forums. He was questioned on his lates and defaults and optimistically mentioned that his account value was still greater than the money he put in. Poor man, he was as deceived as most of us probably are.

In my (and in everyone else's) account value is included not only the full outstanding principal value of all late loans, but also the accumulated interest on these self-same late loans.

So, simply taking my 12 4+ lates that include 4 bankruptcies and 3 loans that Prosper has already brought back from the collections agencies since their announcement that they won't sell these loans (due to a combination of an unacceptably low price and unacceptable conditions imposed by prospective buyers), there is a grand total of $612.02 in unpaid principal included in that total. But it gets worse. Prosper is kindly increasing my account value on a monthly basis with the accumulated interest on these dead, lifeless loans. So, in total, there is already a princely sum of $696.12 in my account value that is, for all intents and purposes less useful than monopoly money.

Check back next month and my account value will be inflated even more with dead money. Money that exists nowhere except in Prosper's accounting system.

Take this a step further. Prosper kindly shows me a net gain/loss figure (bottom of the image above). Looks nice, don't it? I've made a nice $1,300 on Prosper. Uh no. Wait a second. Deduct the $696 from that and I've made a much less respectable $604. And don't forget those other 7 loans drifting slowly and inexorably down to the 4+ month late category. They are in that lovely account value too, and they too are "earning" interest on a monthly basis to swell the pool of dead money in my account.

The way things stand now, if all my loans defaulted to 4+ months late overnight, then my account value on Prosper would remain unchanged in the short term and would show a steady increase over time as they accumulate more unrecoverable interest and late fees.
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bullshitawards
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« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2008, 08:43:22 PM »

Look, if they can't show the numbers this way, then who the hell would provide the next bit of cash to carry them to the gen three lenders?  By my prediction, Prosper will have a new generation of lender each Prosper Day.
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pioneer11
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« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2008, 09:22:18 PM »

As I have mentioned before, Prosper is following the business model used for decades by mail order camera shops.  That model assumes an infinete supply of new customers to bring in with no need to provide customer service or any other value to existing customers.

It is a proven system that has made many companies successful until the customer supply dried up.
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dvd
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« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2008, 10:04:50 PM »

Be happy - At least you've got a positive "Net gain/loss" number...
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« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2008, 11:12:44 PM »

I have the same problem, HO.  I didn't realize it until very recently.

I believe this faux accounting is mentioned in the lawyer letter -- at least I hope it is.
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ira01
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« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2008, 11:18:00 PM »

I have the same problem, HO.  I didn't realize it until very recently.

I believe this faux accounting is mentioned in the lawyer letter -- at least I hope it is.

Yes, it is. 

The SEC doesn't let mutual funds and stock brokers continue to report the value of IndyMac stock (as a current example) in customers' portfolios at the purchase price rather than market value, because doing so would be fraudulent.  Prosper loans should be no different.  Sure, valuation is tougher because there's no market in already originated Prosper loans, as there is for stocks and bonds, but it is 100% certain that late loans (especially 4+++month lates) are worth MUCH less than full principal plus all accrued interest, and to report them that way is nothing less than fraudulent.
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« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2008, 11:22:03 PM »

I have the same problem, HO.  I didn't realize it until very recently.

I believe this faux accounting is mentioned in the lawyer letter -- at least I hope it is.

Yes, it is. 

The SEC doesn't let mutual funds and stock brokers continue to report the value of IndyMac stock (as a current example) in customers' portfolios at the purchase price rather than market value, because doing so would be fraudulent.  Prosper loans should be no different.  Sure, valuation is tougher because there's no market in already originated Prosper loans, as there is for stocks and bonds, but it is 100% certain that late loans (especially 4+++month lates) are worth MUCH less than full principal plus all accrued interest, and to report them that way is nothing less than fraudulent.
looking for a job ira?
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HollowOak
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« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2008, 12:45:32 AM »

The SEC doesn't let mutual funds and stock brokers continue to report the value of IndyMac stock (as a current example) in customers' portfolios at the purchase price rather than market value, because doing so would be fraudulent. 

This seems to me more like reporting the stock value as  purchase price, plus all the dividends that it might have paid out if it didn't go bankrupt.
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msava
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« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2008, 07:26:53 AM »

To make matter worse, I used these figures for my income tax reporting.
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xraider
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« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2008, 08:13:34 AM »

HO, every time I look at your statement, it irritates me.  At least you have defaults.

I have a 10+, an 8+, and a 2+ that doesn't show in collections (or bk or anything) but curiously no defaults!
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cubbiesnextyr
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« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2008, 09:50:40 AM »

To make matter worse, I used these figures for my income tax reporting.

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You need to find a new CPA...
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NewHorizon
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« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2008, 10:03:35 AM »

Every time I look at my Prosper account this irritates me anew.

I couldn't put my finger on it, but something else seemed not right in the image that HO posted.  Then it finally dawned on me what looked out of place: no "Late (<15d)" loans!  Must be nice...  Wink
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yankeefan
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« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2008, 11:17:43 AM »

The "value of loans" also includes accrued late fees, and doesn;t discount for "cost of collection"- neither the Propser service fee nor the CA fees.
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onthefence
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« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2008, 10:25:29 PM »

I see dead money.

« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 09:51:43 PM by onthefence » Logged

Elmslice
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« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2008, 03:09:35 PM »

Fully 23% (!) of my account value (as calculated by Prosper) is dead money as defined here. 

This issue has bugged me more and more as loans age and go late, and as Prosper takes no action to remove 4++++ lates from their system through sales or charge offs or whatever they are supposedly planning to do.   I now have a couple of non-bankruptcy lates that have gone a full year since they last made a payment, and Prosper of course continues to include the loan value plus all accrued interest in my account value.

What a sad story Prosper turned out to be.  Just about the worst execution of a good idea I've ever seen.
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