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Author Topic: "The default rate on the dollar volume of the (Prosper) loans stands at 4.62%"  (Read 1005 times)
112233
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« on: January 21, 2008, 01:16:59 am »

http://www.contracostatimes.com/business/ci_8026758

does anyone know what "dollar volume" means in this context and how it calculates out to be 4.62%?
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ira01
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« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2008, 02:11:47 am »

http://www.contracostatimes.com/business/ci_8026758

does anyone know what "dollar volume" means in this context and how it calculates out to be 4.62%?

I assume this is supposed to mean that 4.62% of Prosper's $111 million in originated loans has defaulted.  That would be $5.13M.  I'm not sure if that is the correct number, although there is a thread here somewhere from a few days ago where someone ran a querry disclosing the dollar figure of all defaulted loans.  Even if it is the correct number, it is, of course, highly misleading since a big chunk of that $111M is too new to have defaulted yet even if the borrower never made a single payment. 
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ira01
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« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2008, 02:14:55 am »


This is really weird -- The first time I clicked on this link, it took me right to the article, and I posted a comment.  But then when I tried to get back to the article I couldn't, and now when I click on the link it says I have to register (which I didn't the first time).  I don't feel like registering, but if anyone who is registered can post the reporter's email address here (it is included, along with her telephone number, at the end of the article, so clearly she doesn't mind having it publicly accessible), I would like to send her an email (as others may as well). 
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« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2008, 02:16:31 am »


This is really weird -- The first time I clicked on this link, it took me right to the article, and I posted a comment.  But then when I tried to get back to the article I couldn't, and now when I click on the link it says I have to register (which I didn't the first time).  I don't feel like registering, but if anyone who is registered can post the reporter's email address here (it is included, along with her telephone number, at the end of the article, so clearly she doesn't mind having it publicly accessible), I would like to send her an email (as others may as well). 

Delete your cookies. Some places give you a free peek and then asks you to ante up a registration. Deleting cookies might get you past the issue (for a while at least).
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« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2008, 02:54:27 am »

Contact information for the reporter has been moved to here , in the lenders' general chat forum, which is not Googled.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2008, 03:52:41 am by Mark12547 » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2008, 03:39:57 am »

Discussions about moderation action on this topic has been moved to here as per the guidelines that are pinned at the top of this board.
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If, as you have indicated, you don’t trust Prosper to detect fraud when it exists or to remunerate you when we find it, then you should reconsider whether you want to lend on Prosper.
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« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2008, 03:42:16 am »

I'm seeing...

Total Loans:
18,120 loans for $114,273,437.08

Defaults:
1,418 loans for $6,161,602.00


1418/18120 = 7.825%

$6,161,602.00/$114,273,437.08 = 5.392%




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« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2008, 04:11:22 am »

I sent the following email to the author.  I received an auto-response that she is out of the office through January 27.
-------------------------
Hi Eve,
 
I saw your Peer-to-Peer lending article on ContraCostaTimes.com.  I was particularly interested in what you wrote about Prosper.com, with which I am very familiar, having been a lender there since March 2007.  Your statement that the "default rate on the dollar volume of the loans stands at 4.62 percent" is highly misleading, even if perhaps technically accurate. 
 
I assume that what you meant by that figure (which was no doubt given to you by Prosper's marketing department) is that 4.62% of Prosper's $111 million in originated loans has technically "defaulted" pursuant to Prosper's narrow definition of "default."  There are several problems with this "analysis," but here are the two largest: 
 
First, the numerator is much too small, because of Prosper's definition of "default."  Prosper only counts a loan as defaulted once it sells it to a junk debt buyer (for pennies on the dollar).  Although Prosper is supposed to sell loans to the JDB when the loan is more than 4 months late, Prosper currently only conducts such sales quarterly, meaning that there are many bad loans that qualify to be "defaulted," but which are actually 5, 6, 7 or more months late.  This was an even bigger problem about 6 months ago, because Prosper was holding the junk debt sales even less frequently and as a result there were a number of loans that were as much as 9 or 10 months late.  Because extremely few loans that are even three months late ever cure (indeed, relatively few two-month late loans cure), all of these loans are defaults in everything but name.  There has been a lot of speculation that Prosper could have intentionally delayed selling the very late loans to the JDB's in order to manipulate its default statistics.  Prosper claims that infrequent sales are a by-product of the need to accumulate a sufficient volume of bad loans for sale.  Whether intentional or not, however, the infrequent junk debt sales certainly has the effect (whether intentional or not) of artificially lowering Prosper's default statistics. 
 
Second, the denominator is much too large.  Prosper divides defaults by the number or dollar value of ALL loans originated (currently about $111 million).  However, it is impossible for a loan to even qualify for default until it is 5 months old (the first payment is not due until a month after origination, so a loan cannot be four months late until it is at least five months old) -- even if the borrower never makes even the very first payment on the loan.  Because Prosper is a relatively new company (it opened to the public in February 2006), which for its first year was growing rapidly, a very significant portion of its $111 million in originated loans is too young to have defaulted yet even if no payment was ever made.  Roughly $30 million of Prosper's $111 million in originated loans is less than 5 months old.  Thus, the denominator should be perhaps $81 million, not $111 million.  And most borrowers do not fail to make their first payment (because that looks too suspicious, and also because the borrower usually still has money from the loan available to make the first several payments), so even eliminating only the last 5 months of loan originations still misleadingly understates the default rate. 
 
Because Prosper's only loan product is a 3-year loan, and Prosper has only been open for business for about 2 years, we are still a year away from Prosper's first loans fully maturing.  Thus, it is impossible to state exactly what the default rate will prove to be.  However, a number of estimates by very smart lenders using different methodologies have estimated that it will likely be about 20%.  That is a far cry from 4.62%. 
 
There are many other problems with Prosper that should be investigated and reported on by the media (I left a comment on the Contra Costa Times website describing a number of them).  Unfortunately, virtually all media coverage to date has consisted of "puff-pieces" that publish Prosper's misleading statistics without any critical analysis.  If you are interested in looking deeper into Prosper, there is a huge wealth of information available to you:
 
www.prospers.org is the largest Prosper forum, where many highly seasoned lenders (a number of whom date back to the beginning of Prosper) discuss various aspects of Prosper.  You will learn a lot simply by perusing the posts, and if you post a question, you are certain to receive many very knowledgeable responses.  There are a number of people who hang out at prospers.org who can answer any question you might have, including slicing and dicing Prosper's data almost any way imaginable. 
 
www.lendingstats,.com and www.ericscc.com use Prosper's own data to provide an enormous amount of easily used statistical data about Prosper, including a list of every Prosper loan and every Prosper lender, both filterable and sortable by various criteria. 
 
If you have any questions, I would be happy to answer them for you. 
 
Sincerely,
 
Ira xxxxxxxxxxx (ira01 on Prosper)
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« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2008, 09:11:12 am »

I'm seeing...

Total Loans:
18,120 loans for $114,273,437.08

Defaults:
1,418 loans for $6,161,602.00


1418/18120 = 7.825%

$6,161,602.00/$114,273,437.08 = 5.392%


Using the net defaults...

Quote
Net defaults  $5,188,770
(from the performance page)

...yields 4.54%
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