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Author Topic: Defaulted borrower wants to pay?  (Read 14303 times)

traveler505

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Re: Defaulted borrower wants to pay?
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2008, 11:19:08 am »

Here's the schedule from Eric's:

Quote
Sep 15, 2006 Current
Feb 01, 2007 Late
Feb 19, 2007 1 month late
Feb 21, 2007 Current
Mar 07, 2007 Late
Mar 19, 2007 1 month late
Apr 03, 2007 Current
Apr 06, 2007 Late
Apr 11, 2007 Current
May 03, 2007 Late
May 19, 2007 1 month late
May 30, 2007 Current
Jun 03, 2007 Late
Jun 19, 2007 1 month late
Jun 20, 2007 2 months late
Jul 19, 2007 3 months late
Aug 27, 2007 2 months late
Aug 28, 2007 3 months late
Sep 19, 2007 4+ months late
Dec 28, 2007 Default

She was current at the end of May, 7 months before the loan was sold.

She made a payment at the end of August, 4 months before the loan was sold, which brought the loan from 3 months late to 2 months late.

It's not an exemplary payment record, but it's certainly not one which would cause me to give up all hope and dump the loan for a pittance and a tax write-off at the first opportunity. 
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Mtnchick

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Re: Defaulted borrower wants to pay?
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2008, 11:26:02 am »

She made a payment at the end of August, 4 months before the loan was sold, which brought the loan from 3 months late to 2 months late.

It's not an exemplary payment record, but it's certainly not one which would cause me to give up all hope and dump the loan for a pittance and a tax write-off at the first opportunity. 

Well when DO you decide to sell it? Back we go to that question again. Personally if it was a debt that was owed to me and had been in collections that long with that sporadic a payment, I would have sold it for pennies on the dollar. I know I've written off debts (I do my own collections and have never sold a debt) much sooner than that. IMO it's just not good business sense to "hope" that someone might be that small fraction of a percentage of people who will catch up completely at some point.

2cents
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traveler505

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Re: Defaulted borrower wants to pay?
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2008, 11:40:35 am »

She made a payment at the end of August, 4 months before the loan was sold, which brought the loan from 3 months late to 2 months late.

It's not an exemplary payment record, but it's certainly not one which would cause me to give up all hope and dump the loan for a pittance and a tax write-off at the first opportunity. 

Well when DO you decide to sell it? Back we go to that question again. Personally if it was a debt that was owed to me and had been in collections that long with that sporadic a payment, I would have sold it for pennies on the dollar. I know I've written off debts (I do my own collections and have never sold a debt) much sooner than that. IMO it's just not good business sense to "hope" that someone might be that small fraction of a percentage of people who will catch up completely at some point.

2cents

This is one issue that I think Doug Fuller is right about.  A creditor needs to triage bad debts based on the debtor's assets and income/income potential, and to a lesser extent, their other liabilities (e.g. bankruptcy potential).  (I get the impression that certain of Fuller's triage criteria are a bit wack, but that's besides the point.) 
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ira01

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Re: Defaulted borrower wants to pay?
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2008, 11:56:56 am »

She made a payment at the end of August, 4 months before the loan was sold, which brought the loan from 3 months late to 2 months late.

It's not an exemplary payment record, but it's certainly not one which would cause me to give up all hope and dump the loan for a pittance and a tax write-off at the first opportunity. 

Well when DO you decide to sell it? Back we go to that question again. Personally if it was a debt that was owed to me and had been in collections that long with that sporadic a payment, I would have sold it for pennies on the dollar. I know I've written off debts (I do my own collections and have never sold a debt) much sooner than that. IMO it's just not good business sense to "hope" that someone might be that small fraction of a percentage of people who will catch up completely at some point.

Ideally, you would have someone apply their good judgment to the situation, and make a judgment call as to whether it is in the lenders' best interest to wait or to default -- i.e., is there is a reasonable likelihood of additional payments or whether it is simply time to cut your losses.  After all, 1 or 2 additional monthly payments is likely to be more than what the JDB will pay (and MUCH more than the decrease in what the JDB will pay in the future as opposed to now -- which is the cost of waiting).  In the case of this particular loan, the payment history would suggest patience to me.  This borrower is someone who apparently was in constant financial crises, yet came current 4 times during the life of the loan (3 of which followed 1 month lates), and paid another month's payment after being 3 months late.  Barring additional information that we are not privy to (such as the borrower telling Prosper that he/she would never make another payment), it seems to me from the repayment history that this borrower may well have made additional payments down the road.  If it were up to me, I would have waited.

However, there are two major problems with the above approach.  First, and most importantly, as we have seen again and again, Prosper generally does not have good judgment, and it does not usually act in the lenders' best interest.  Thus, the chances are too high (and the perception would be nearly universal) that Prosper's decisions would be colored (if not overwhelmed) by its OWN self-interest -- for example, delaying defaults as long as possible in order to artificially keep its default statistics as low as possible (and thus its ROI stats as high as possible), in order to put out more appealing press releases and advertisements.  Second, the Lender Agreement does not authorize Prosper to make such determinations (and probably that's a good thing due to the first reason above).

This is a perfect example of why it is so unfortunate that Prosper is as incompetent and unethical as it is.  Had Prosper chosen a different path, lenders would have given Prosper the authority to act in their best interests in such matters, which would have benefitted lenders (and thereby Prosper).  But Prosper squandered the trust and good will it had, so now lenders would have to have rocks in their heads to allow Prosper the authority to further manipulate the already misleading default statistics.  
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lenderguy

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Re: Defaulted borrower wants to pay?
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2008, 01:21:46 pm »

She made a payment at the end of August, 4 months before the loan was sold, which brought the loan from 3 months late to 2 months late.

It's not an exemplary payment record, but it's certainly not one which would cause me to give up all hope and dump the loan for a pittance and a tax write-off at the first opportunity. 

Well when DO you decide to sell it? Back we go to that question again. Personally if it was a debt that was owed to me and had been in collections that long with that sporadic a payment, I would have sold it for pennies on the dollar. I know I've written off debts (I do my own collections and have never sold a debt) much sooner than that. IMO it's just not good business sense to "hope" that someone might be that small fraction of a percentage of people who will catch up completely at some point.

2cents

So was was Prosper right in selling off gapeach/abrittain's loan?  (That was trav's special case.)
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Mtnchick

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Re: Defaulted borrower wants to pay?
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2008, 01:31:57 pm »

She made a payment at the end of August, 4 months before the loan was sold, which brought the loan from 3 months late to 2 months late.

It's not an exemplary payment record, but it's certainly not one which would cause me to give up all hope and dump the loan for a pittance and a tax write-off at the first opportunity. 

Well when DO you decide to sell it? Back we go to that question again. Personally if it was a debt that was owed to me and had been in collections that long with that sporadic a payment, I would have sold it for pennies on the dollar. I know I've written off debts (I do my own collections and have never sold a debt) much sooner than that. IMO it's just not good business sense to "hope" that someone might be that small fraction of a percentage of people who will catch up completely at some point.

2cents

So was was Prosper right in selling off gapeach/abrittain's loan?  (That was trav's special case.)

I went back and forth on this one, but I do think it should have been sold. IIRC, she hadn't paid a dime of principle?
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lenderguy

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Re: Defaulted borrower wants to pay?
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2008, 01:43:13 pm »

She made a payment at the end of August, 4 months before the loan was sold, which brought the loan from 3 months late to 2 months late.

It's not an exemplary payment record, but it's certainly not one which would cause me to give up all hope and dump the loan for a pittance and a tax write-off at the first opportunity. 

Well when DO you decide to sell it? Back we go to that question again. Personally if it was a debt that was owed to me and had been in collections that long with that sporadic a payment, I would have sold it for pennies on the dollar. I know I've written off debts (I do my own collections and have never sold a debt) much sooner than that. IMO it's just not good business sense to "hope" that someone might be that small fraction of a percentage of people who will catch up completely at some point.

2cents

So was was Prosper right in selling off gapeach/abrittain's loan?  (That was trav's special case.)

I went back and forth on this one, but I do think it should have been sold. IIRC, she hadn't paid a dime of principle?

I believe that by letter of rule, they should have.  And after all, right now, we do want Prosper to operate within the rules they have outlined with us.  Unfortunately, that means sometimes we get the short end of the stick.
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Mtnchick

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Re: Defaulted borrower wants to pay?
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2008, 01:48:10 pm »

I believe that by letter of rule, they should have.  And after all, right now, we do want Prosper to operate within the rules they have outlined with us.  Unfortunately, that means sometimes we get the short end of the stick.

True. But as I said, the fraction of people who are going to get up to date isn't worth letting them all sit there and fester and as Ira pointed out, letting P-----r pick and choose isn't such a good plan either. I'm willing to let a baby or two get thrown out with the millions of gallons of bathwater.

ETA - speaking of debt sales, aren't we due for another one in a few weeks or so?
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traveler505

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Re: Defaulted borrower wants to pay?
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2008, 01:51:26 pm »

She made a payment at the end of August, 4 months before the loan was sold, which brought the loan from 3 months late to 2 months late.

It's not an exemplary payment record, but it's certainly not one which would cause me to give up all hope and dump the loan for a pittance and a tax write-off at the first opportunity. 

Well when DO you decide to sell it? Back we go to that question again. Personally if it was a debt that was owed to me and had been in collections that long with that sporadic a payment, I would have sold it for pennies on the dollar. I know I've written off debts (I do my own collections and have never sold a debt) much sooner than that. IMO it's just not good business sense to "hope" that someone might be that small fraction of a percentage of people who will catch up completely at some point.

2cents

So was was Prosper right in selling off gapeach/abrittain's loan?  (That was trav's special case.)

I went back and forth on this one, but I do think it should have been sold. IIRC, she hadn't paid a dime of principle?

On my share of that loan, she paid $15.40 (interest) plus $1.30 (late fees), less the $1.21 that went to Penncro.  The JDB paid $5.40 for the loan.

Had Prosper not sold the loan, I believe that she would have continued to make payments as she was able, and three additional payments would have given lenders more than we got from the JDB.  
« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 01:59:44 pm by traveler505 »
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Mtnchick

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Re: Defaulted borrower wants to pay?
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2008, 02:02:21 pm »

On my share of that loan, she paid $15.40 (interest) plus $1.30 (late fees), less the $1.21 that went to Penncro.  The JDB paid $5.40 for the loan.

Had Prosper not sold the loan, I believe that she would have continued to make payments as she was able, and three additional payments would have given lenders more than we got from the JDB. 

Quote
True. But as I said, the fraction of people who are going to get up to date isn't worth letting them all sit there and fester and as Ira pointed out, letting P-----r pick and choose isn't such a good plan either. I'm willing to let a baby or two get thrown out with the millions of gallons of bathwater.
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traveler505

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Re: Defaulted borrower wants to pay?
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2008, 02:02:53 pm »

Quote
ETA - speaking of debt sales, aren't we due for another one in a few weeks or so?

See anything I should make an offer on?   :ninja:

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Mtnchick

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Re: Defaulted borrower wants to pay?
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2008, 02:05:39 pm »

Quote
ETA - speaking of debt sales, aren't we due for another one in a few weeks or so?

See anything I should make an offer on?   :ninja:



Haven't really looked, but Bev's daughter should be around for the next sale ;)
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traveler505

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Re: Defaulted borrower wants to pay?
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2008, 02:16:58 pm »

On my share of that loan, she paid $15.40 (interest) plus $1.30 (late fees), less the $1.21 that went to Penncro.  The JDB paid $5.40 for the loan.

Had Prosper not sold the loan, I believe that she would have continued to make payments as she was able, and three additional payments would have given lenders more than we got from the JDB. 

Quote
True. But as I said, the fraction of people who are going to get up to date isn't worth letting them all sit there and fester and as Ira pointed out, letting P-----r pick and choose isn't such a good plan either. I'm willing to let a baby or two get thrown out with the millions of gallons of bathwater.

Obviously, the JDBs think there are a lot of babies in the bathwater.  They're in the business to make a profit, and the only way they can do that is to collect more from the borrowers than they pay for the loans.  Why should that profit go to the JDBs rather than to us?

Of my 7 defaults:

1 was gapeach, who, as I said, I believe would have continued to pay as she was able.

1 is a law student who, in a year or so, will likely either have to clean up her bad debts to pass a moral character test (depending on the state), or will have a good-paying job as an attorney.

1 I offered to buy for 2.5 times what Prosper sold it for, and I think that would have been a profitable purchase.

1 is probably uncollectable

3 I don't have enough info to assess.  

Between 3 and 6 a lot of babies out of 7 bathwaters.
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Mtnchick

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Re: Defaulted borrower wants to pay?
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2008, 02:23:16 pm »

Obviously, the JDBs think there are a lot of babies in the bathwater.  They're in the business to make a profit, and the only way they can do that is to collect more from the borrowers than they pay for the loans.  Why should that profit go to the JDBs rather than to us?


You're comparing apples and oranges. The JDB can buy a $100 loan for $8, collect $16 and make a 100% profit. P------r doesn't offer the option of only paying a small portion of your loan in order to be "clear". So yes, of course it's easier for a JDB to get $18 than it is for P------r to get $100 (plus the accruing interest).

As with the original post here, the ability to pay the loans after being in default is speculation.

Now, if P-----r allowed us to buy back the loans ourselves, you're in a different ballpark. But for now, I see no reason to let a loan fester for another tax year if a borrower has shown they don't pay on time, if at all.
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ira01

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Re: Defaulted borrower wants to pay?
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2008, 06:44:18 pm »

1 is a law student who, in a year or so, will likely either have to clean up her bad debts to pass a moral character test (depending on the state), or will have a good-paying job as an attorney.

Not necessarily.  IIRC, at least in California, bad debts do not torpedo a moral character exam, which is looking more for dishonesty (e.g., fraud) than financial problems (although I suppose someone whose finances are a real train wreck might raise some questions as to whether they should be trusted with client funds).  And not all law school grads get a "good-paying job."  While the headlines often like to speak of the $160K starting salaries for lawyers, those jobs are only for the top graduates at the top law schools who go to the top big law firms.  As seen here, the 2007 median starting salary at firms of 2-25 lawyers is $68,000.  While that is a goodly amount of money, it is also distorted by the higher pay in certain high-cost areas, such as New York City, Los Angeles, and Chicago.  And, of course, half of the people make less than the median.  And large attorney job categories such as prosecutors, judicial clerks, and Legal Services jobs pay much less -- 2006 median salaries of $46,000, $46,500, and $38,000 respectively. 

ETA: I forgot to add that many, if not most, law school graduates also graduate with large to enormous student loans.  $100K or more is not at all uncommon. 
« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 07:12:39 pm by ira01 »
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