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Author Topic: NASAA announces: National Settlement with Prosper Marketplace, Inc.  (Read 73480 times)

animalhouse

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Re: NASAA announces: National Settlement with Prosper Marketplace, Inc.
« Reply #76 on: December 04, 2008, 09:52:15 am »


He also told me that very few folks have filed complaints with their individual "States". He said Securities regulator's prefer to act when they've recieved complaints from their citizens.


I did file a complaint with my state's regulators over a year ago.  (I live in the state south of Large Midwest State.)
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Investar

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Re: NASAA announces: National Settlement with Prosper Marketplace, Inc.
« Reply #77 on: December 04, 2008, 10:25:34 am »

Just curious. Does anyone think Wisconsin is large enough and mid-west enough to be considered a large midwestern state? I recall the Milwaukee Brewers play baseball there. Might that mean they like beer and baseball more than other qualifying states?

Would anyone agree then, the leading states in NASAA's action we know of so far are:
---Oregon
---(perhaps Missouri)see note
---Kentucky

Note: Based on new information Wisconsin is removed from this list naming the 5 pro-active states within NASAA that I am attempting to assemble.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 12:32:54 pm by Investar »
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Cushie

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Re: NASAA announces: National Settlement with Prosper Marketplace, Inc.
« Reply #78 on: December 04, 2008, 11:06:47 am »

I'd consider Illinois to be a large midwest state, but there are several states that could qualify.
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beerbud1

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Re: NASAA announces: National Settlement with Prosper Marketplace, Inc.
« Reply #79 on: December 04, 2008, 11:15:59 am »

I like budweiser. where is it brewed?
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bamalucky

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Re: NASAA announces: National Settlement with Prosper Marketplace, Inc.
« Reply #80 on: December 04, 2008, 11:18:07 am »

I like budweiser. where is it brewed?

Rome Ga has a big brewery
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beerbud1

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Re: NASAA announces: National Settlement with Prosper Marketplace, Inc.
« Reply #81 on: December 04, 2008, 11:21:14 am »

I like budweiser. where is it brewed?

Rome Ga has a big brewery
Georgia is not in the Midwest, my dear friend. Nice try though. ;D
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Investar

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Re: NASAA announces: National Settlement with Prosper Marketplace, Inc.
« Reply #82 on: December 04, 2008, 11:41:32 am »

I like budweiser. where is it brewed?

Rome Ga has a big brewery
Georgia is not in the Midwest, my dear friend. Nice try though. ;D

Anheuser Busch operates 12 breweries in the United States. Learn more facts and other benefits here.

St. Louis
Newark, N.J.
Los Angeles
Houston
Columbus, Ohio
Jacksonville, Fla.
Merrimack, N.H.
Williamsburg, Va.
Fairfield, Calif.
Baldwinsville, N.Y.
Fort Collins, Colo.
and Cartersville, Georgia, a large midwestern state.
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beerbud1

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Re: NASAA announces: National Settlement with Prosper Marketplace, Inc.
« Reply #83 on: December 04, 2008, 11:48:24 am »

When I think of the Midwest, I think of Missouri. I certainly don't think of Georgia as a large Midwest State.
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Investar

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Re: NASAA announces: National Settlement with Prosper Marketplace, Inc.
« Reply #84 on: December 04, 2008, 12:07:15 pm »

When I think of the Midwest, I think of Missouri. I certainly don't think of Georgia as a large Midwest State.

I took liberty of a little editorializing for my amusement. Anheuser makes no claim for Georgia.
Just the facts: http://anheuser-busch.com/Breweries.html

But I have digressed. Considering Oregon and Kentucky as firmly favored for certain unique reasons on this on Pro$pers thread, should we firmly favor Wisconsin? Missouri wasn't in my my thinking.
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beerbud1

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Re: NASAA announces: National Settlement with Prosper Marketplace, Inc.
« Reply #85 on: December 04, 2008, 12:08:40 pm »

When I think of the Midwest, I think of Missouri. I certainly don't think of Georgia as a large Midwest State.

I took liberty of a little editorializing for my amusement. Anheuser makes no claim for Georgia.
Just the facts: http://anheuser-busch.com/Breweries.html

But I have digressed. Considering Oregon and Kentucky as firmly favored for certain unique reasons on this on Pro$pers thread, should we firmly favor Wisconsin? Missouri wasn't in my my thinking.
No!
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ira01

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Re: NASAA announces: National Settlement with Prosper Marketplace, Inc.
« Reply #86 on: December 04, 2008, 12:23:31 pm »

IF everything goes against Prosper and full relief is granted, does that mean:

1) Prosper would be required to repurchase all loans issued ($274M $178M), only those outstanding, only those late/defaulted ($27M), or some combination?

No one really knows yet what the exact scope of the remedy would be.  Apparently, rescission is an available remedy in unregistered securities cases.  That measns Prosper would have to repurchase all of the loans tendered back to it by lenders.  But someone seeking rescission has to tender back what they got in exchange for what is being tendered (for example, if I sell you something and you rescind the sale, I have to give you back the purchase price and you give me back the goods).  So in the case of PIF loans, rescission wouldn't really apply, since it would be a wash -- lenders would have to return the money they received (it's not clear to me how the interest would work -- more on this in a minute).  

As I've noted before, I think the major unanswered question is whether lenders would be allowed to pick and choose which loans they want to tender back to Prosper, or whenther each lender would have to make an "all or nothing" election.  If the former, obviously everyone would tender back the defaulted/charged-off loans, and probably the late ones too, but many lenders would keep their current loans (assuming Prosper or someone else was going to be around to service them).  If the latter, a lot of lenders would have a tough decision to make.  

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2) Lawsuits generally only require the Plaintiffs be made whole, plus punitive damages. If someone made loans but still had a green circle (aka Lendingstats: ABuckeye), what could they expect? Would they maybe be given an option of selling the loans back to Prosper for remaining face value with no future interest, or keep the loans and that future interest?

Rescission seeks to "unwind" the deal, returning the parties as much as possible to their pre-contracting state.  Even lenders with green circles could presumably opt for rescission, since the harm is not dependant on the loan's non-performance, but the fact that the sale of the loan to the lender was illegal.  And, as we all know, loans that are current today may not be tomorrow.  

Taking the simplest example, a lender with 1 loan could presumably require Prosper to repurchase that loan, but would have to tender back the money received.  But I think that clearly doesn't mean ALL the money received, because the lender would be entitled to interest on the money for the time that the money has been out of his/her possession.  However, I'm not sure what the proper interest rate would be.  It might be the contracted rate on the loan, in which case the lender would tender back the principal received in exchange for Prosper paying the original principal amount -- the net, of course, would be that Prosper would repurchase the loan for the remaining principal amount.  Alternatively, it might be the case that the lender wouldn't be entitled to the contracted (often very high) rate, but rather would only be entitled to the "legal" rate (which is basically a rate set by the state that applies to things like unpaid judgments).  I think that in California, the legal rate is 10%, which I think is pretty typical.  If that is how things work out, then lenders tendering back high-rate current loans would receive somewhat less than the remaining principal on their loans.  For loans that are late, Prosper could have to pay lenders more than the remaining principal amount, as a result of accrued interest.  

Thus, the situation is very complicated, and gets even more so if lenders with more than 1 loan are considered.  Aside from the major issue of whether lenders have to seek rescission on their entire portfolio or can pick and choose, there is also a question of how the interest would be handled, especially if lenders were only entitled to the legal rate, not the contracted rate.  Would all of a lender's loans be lumped together in figuring out the interest owed, or would each loan be calcualted individually.  For example, if a lender keeps his high-rate loans and tenders back his low-rate loans, would Prosper have to make up the shortfall in interest, or would the "excess" interest on the high-rate loans be credited to Prosper?  Could the interest received on high-rate loans even reduce the principal on other loans that Prosper would have to pay?  I have no idea how all of this will shake out.  It would be nice if the class attorney would come here and provide some illumination.

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3) Would Prosper have to make fully whole the losses, even though people should have some expectation of losses? Like would they only have to pay back losses that exceeded some expected loss, like Actual ROI - Experian ROI = Prosper's Liability?

I think that there is virtually no chance Prosper would be able to require lenders to eat losses because they should have expected some.  As noted above, rescission seeks to unwind the deal.  

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4) Won't this destroy Prosper should they lose, IF they ever intended to continue business?

Probably yes.  Certainly Prosper does not have enough money (and probably not the capacity for raising enough money) to repurchase even the defaulted/charged-off/late loans, much less all the active loans.  The big unknown here, however, is that Prosper is not the only potential source of the money -- it appears that there are lots of other deep-pockets that might be tapped, including Larsen, the VC Prosper Directors, possibly insurance, and possibly the attorney who was apparently consulted by Larsen and Wichtel about compliance with the securities laws before Prosper opened.  
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Investar

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Re: NASAA announces: National Settlement with Prosper Marketplace, Inc.
« Reply #87 on: December 04, 2008, 01:55:53 pm »

Apparently, rescission is an available remedy in unregistered securities cases.  That measns Prosper would have to repurchase all of the loans tendered ... [but] l in the case of PIF loans, rescission wouldn't really apply, since it would be a wash -- lenders would have to return the money they received (it's not clear to me how the interest would work -- more on this in a minute).

Rescission would be a wash? I gave 'em the money, they gave me the goods under false pretenses. I give the goods back, they return my money. End of story the way I read you. I'll further speculate the interest would not come into play. Interest is the expected performance of the product. Say I bought a window fan and sometimes it blows air and sometimes in doesn't -- when I return the item sold to me under false pretenses (was said to blow a constant breeze) whatever blown air I enjoyed remains mine. Any future blowing air will be enjoyed by, well, not me.

In the case of Prosper, they have essentially been returning a portion of my money all along as the borrower reduces the value of our contract by paying principal at regular intervals. Thus, the value to be considered would be the principal outstanding on an agreed day and time. Again, I don't see interest, past or future, coming into play.

I don't see the pick-n-choose scenario as viable. Unless you opt out of the action, it seems more likely you will be forced to return the product, the product being all your Promissory Notes.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 02:12:19 pm by Investar »
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mothandrust

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Re: NASAA announces: National Settlement with Prosper Marketplace, Inc.
« Reply #88 on: December 04, 2008, 03:25:05 pm »


I kind of agree with Moth's point, though: while the regulators just got 1 million bucks, we are getting nothing. Why is that right?

Certainly.  I see his point also.  But it seems to me we are likely to come out farther ahead if Prosper is required to repurchase all defaulted, charged off, and 4+ loans instead of waiting and depending on PMI or their agent to properly service the still active loans.  I think the CA suit can pursue Larsen and others to find sufficient funds for everybody, including the large lenders like carrey79, Fred, Pensioner et al.

Don't forget the VC funders who are probably not amused to learn that PMI is in violation of securities laws.  They will line up their lawyers to get a piece of their $20 million back.

There is not an umlimited pot of money from which all of us (lenders, employees, lawyers, VC funders, creditors, regulators) can draw from.

Whenever someone who is not a lender gets money from the pot, that is less money that lenders can hope to recover.
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ira01

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Re: NASAA announces: National Settlement with Prosper Marketplace, Inc.
« Reply #89 on: December 04, 2008, 03:28:18 pm »

Apparently, rescission is an available remedy in unregistered securities cases.  That measns Prosper would have to repurchase all of the loans tendered ... [but] l in the case of PIF loans, rescission wouldn't really apply, since it would be a wash -- lenders would have to return the money they received (it's not clear to me how the interest would work -- more on this in a minute).

Rescission would be a wash? I gave 'em the money, they gave me the goods under false pretenses. I give the goods back, they return my money. End of story the way I read you. I'll further speculate the interest would not come into play. Interest is the expected performance of the product. Say I bought a window fan and sometimes it blows air and sometimes in doesn't -- when I return the item sold to me under false pretenses (was said to blow a constant breeze) whatever blown air I enjoyed remains mine. Any future blowing air will be enjoyed by, well, not me.

In the case of Prosper, they have essentially been returning a portion of my money all along as the borrower reduces the value of our contract by paying principal at regular intervals. Thus, the value to be considered would be the principal outstanding on an agreed day and time. Again, I don't see interest, past or future, coming into play.

I disagree.  The idea of rescission is to return the parties to the position they would have been in had the deal never been made.  Simply returning my money to me a year or two later doesn't do that, because I have lost the use of my money during that time.  I think it is almost certain Prosper would owe at least the legal rate of interest from the original date until the money was returned.

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I don't see the pick-n-choose scenario as viable. Unless you opt out of the action, it seems more likely you will be forced to return the product, the product being all your Promissory Notes.

I think that no one will be "forced to return the product."  Prosper is the wrongdoer here, by unlawfully selling unregistred securities.  I think that makes the sale voidable, but not void.  I think it will be up to each lender whether or not they want to exercise their remedy of rescission.  The question in my mind is whether that election can be loan by loan or all or nothing.  I can see the argument for each, and I don't know how that would play out.  

Of course, TINLA.  If anyone wants legal advice, they should talk to their lawyer.
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