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Author Topic: Greetings  (Read 63215 times)

Cushie

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2010, 08:43:01 pm »


I'm getting the feeling I'm not welcome here.  It seems this is not an active lending forum as I had thought.

You're welcome here - everyone is.  Just know that we've seen it all with Prosper.  I only have one loan (and was a borrower) and have seen people I thought were really quality people stop paying.  I've seen Prosper not even move a muscle to collect.  I've seen Prosper advertise rates of return that simply don't happen. 

There's much more, so when we see someone new throwing in lots of money and thinking they can beat the odds, we cringe a little.  Not because we don't like YOU - because we know the future.  I have the most sincerest hope that you do better than everyone else.  Please be cautious.  Bid on a few loans, let them age 6 months and then reevaluate your lending strategies because certainly by 6 months some of them will not only default but will run giddily away from Prosper with YOUR money.

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pioneer11

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2010, 08:43:41 pm »

Study this too:
http://fred93blog.blogspot.com/

Thanks for the extra info.  I saw that today.  I understand this is a very risky business. It always is when you deal with consumer credit risk.  That's why the rate on my portfolio is 28%+.  I'm not blind to those risks.  I am a student of historical data as I used to trade bonds on the floor of the CBOT (before CME bought them).

Having said all that, I believe we are in very unusual times right now.  Back when most of these loans were being originated (2006-2008) anyone with a heartbeat could get a loan (heck, sometimes I would have questioned whether or not you needed one).  Capital was flowing and liquidity was ample.  Fast-forward a couple years and things have changed.  Capital is scarce, liquidity is cheap for those with EXCELLENT credit, but very expensive (if not unavailable) for everyone else.  That's what attracted me to Prosper.

I know there are many lenders on here who got burned by lending on Prosper, and I can feel your pain. Ive lost tens of thousands on bad bets before.  My questions is this - Is there anyone on here still lending actively on Prosper?  If so, what is your portfolio size?  Is the general concensus that Prosper is a losing bet?

Thanks for your thoughts  
Do a member search on "ResearchPro".  Read his posts and don't be a dick like he has been.

I'm getting the feeling I'm not welcome here.  It seems this is not an active lending forum as I had thought.
You are welcome here.  We are just trying to help you keep your money yours.
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Xenon481

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2010, 08:54:11 pm »

Thanks for the links.  I could read the "unlikely to prosper" link.  It kept freezing my computer.

Hmm... Both the .org thread and the article itself are working on my computer.

Fred93

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2010, 09:00:48 pm »

I'm getting the feeling I'm not welcome here.  It seems this is not an active lending forum as I had thought.

Welcome!   Don't let the warnings push you away.  You see, there have been quite a few folks who walked in here with the "I'm gonna make X% 'cause I'm smart and all you guys were stupid." attitude.  None of them so far has succeeded.  Anyway, some folks here have trigger fingers as a result.

There was a lot of discussion among active lenders here at one time, but activity of folks here has been radically reduced over time.  

I'd lend again on Prosper if there were some management changes which resulted in more respect for lenders, some collection efforts, management folks doin' what they said they were gonna' do, etc.  There have been some management changes, but not enough.  I'd also like to see the business growing in a way that implied sustainability.  The recent round of funding helped a lot, but isn't quite enough to ensure the business will succeed long term.  

I'd really like to see them succeed, because its fun.

I for one anxiously await knowing whether you succeed.  I believe your portfolio has a reasonable chance of doin' ok, but I suspect the ROI will be a little lower than you hope.  Your loans are pretty young, so any estimate of default rate is gonna be real noisy.  
« Last Edit: May 02, 2010, 09:02:21 pm by Fred93 »
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Your_Bank

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2010, 09:11:04 pm »


I'm getting the feeling I'm not welcome here.  It seems this is not an active lending forum as I had thought.

You're welcome here - everyone is.  Just know that we've seen it all with Prosper.  I only have one loan (and was a borrower) and have seen people I thought were really quality people stop paying.  I've seen Prosper not even move a muscle to collect.  I've seen Prosper advertise rates of return that simply don't happen. 

There's much more, so when we see someone new throwing in lots of money and thinking they can beat the odds, we cringe a little.  Not because we don't like YOU - because we know the future.  I have the most sincerest hope that you do better than everyone else.  Please be cautious.  Bid on a few loans, let them age 6 months and then reevaluate your lending strategies because certainly by 6 months some of them will not only default but will run giddily away from Prosper with YOUR money.



Thanks Crushie.  My intention is to take a pause soon and see the performance of my portfolio over time.  Maybe I will pull up a little shy of my $50K target.  I want to make sure I have a good enough sample size to evaluate my portfolio.  My first ~200 loans were all small, with total invested of ~$5,000.  Once I started to be more selective I increased my average loan size from $25 to ~$150, with only a few select loans going over $400.

I expect defaults.  Just hoping to minimize them as best I can.
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Your_Bank

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2010, 09:24:58 pm »

I'm getting the feeling I'm not welcome here.  It seems this is not an active lending forum as I had thought.

Welcome!   Don't let the warnings push you away.  You see, there have been quite a few folks who walked in here with the "I'm gonna make X% 'cause I'm smart and all you guys were stupid." attitude.  None of them so far has succeeded.  Anyway, some folks here have trigger fingers as a result.

There was a lot of discussion among active lenders here at one time, but activity of folks here has been radically reduced over time.  

I'd lend again on Prosper if there were some management changes which resulted in more respect for lenders, some collection efforts, management folks doin' what they said they were gonna' do, etc.  There have been some management changes, but not enough.  I'd also like to see the business growing in a way that implied sustainability.  The recent round of funding helped a lot, but isn't quite enough to ensure the business will succeed long term.  

I'd really like to see them succeed, because its fun.

I for one anxiously await knowing whether you succeed.  I believe your portfolio has a reasonable chance of doin' ok, but I suspect the ROI will be a little lower than you hope.  Your loans are pretty young, so any estimate of default rate is gonna be real noisy.  


Thanks Fred.  In no way do I think I am smarter than anyone here.  It would be stupid to say so.  My "theory" is based on "times have changed" and the time is right for P2P lending.  I respect historical data, but in this case I am somewhat discounting it, because anyone who was going to P2P lending to get a loan in 2006-2008 must have been sub-sub prime cause banks were giving money away.  Now the exact oposite is true, banks won't lend to good credit customers.  This is why I believe there is an opportunity now.  Call me wishful thinking, hopeful, or even crazy.  But my money is litterally on the other side.

The X-factor for me is the concern with management raised on this board.  I'm trying to discern if people are just pissed cause they lost money (I would be too) or there is real management problems.  This is a relatively new business, so rules have to change on the fly.  I dont expect prosper to knock down every door of the homes of borrowers who are 60+ days late.  On a superficial level, I've spoken to Prosper a few times, don't remember the names.  One was general first level account support.  The other was the head of corporate accounts.  My interactions were limited, but I found them polite.  

I hope Prosper does well too.  Nigel Morris is no dummy.  He was thought to be the smarter between he and current CEO Rich Fairbank.

Kind Regards
« Last Edit: May 02, 2010, 09:34:13 pm by Your_Bank »
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kenL

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2010, 09:57:47 pm »

Welcome, I like your assessment of the situation. In the old days I think Prosper was lending to many sub-subprime borrowers, but now they've upped the borrower bar quite a bit.

I also recommend that you take it slow. You really should wait 6 months or even a year to reassess the loans that you have made already and also to reassess the financial situation at prosper.
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Xenon481

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2010, 10:10:47 pm »

I too believe that the average ROI will be higher during this period than previous periods and that I could likely have a positive ROI, but I do not feel that it would be high enough to justify the level of risk.

And that completely discounts the risk of a Prosper bankruptcy before notes have fully matured. Prosper's bankruptcy has only been staved off so far for about 2 years out of a 3 year loan's life. They were very nearly bankrupt between December 2009 and April 2010.

ETA: And it also discounts my dislike of so many things that Prosper management has done since late 2007.
ETA2: Also note that all but one of the links I gave you have to do with Prosper management, and the one that is about performance is really more about Prosper's spinning of that performance number.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2010, 10:18:54 pm by Xenon481 »
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ResearchPro

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2010, 10:28:01 pm »

I'm very well aware of that.  I was introduced to that site early on.  The 2 lates is on ~150-170 loans, or ~1.5% late in the first month (or 2).  The research I have seen suggests a linear relationship between months held and (PD) probability of default.  i.e.  The highest risk of default is in the first few months.

thoughts.....

Hi there and welcome.
About the research - I suspect you might have seen the biased one. Fred93 here is doing stats on late loans and based on that I have observed a pretty flat % of going late on each month of age. So I won't exactly expect all the bad stuff to be in the first month.
Although it's all based on Prosper data before the recent reopening, and the recent data looks much better as far as I can tell, so you never know.

The_Cat

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2010, 01:40:57 am »

I'm getting the feeling I'm not welcome here.  It seems this is not an active lending forum as I had thought.

Welcome!   Don't let the warnings push you away.  You see, there have been quite a few folks who walked in here with the "I'm gonna make X% 'cause I'm smart and all you guys were stupid." attitude.  None of them so far has succeeded.  Anyway, some folks here have trigger fingers as a result.

There was a lot of discussion among active lenders here at one time, but activity of folks here has been radically reduced over time.  

I'd lend again on Prosper if there were some management changes which resulted in more respect for lenders, some collection efforts, management folks doin' what they said they were gonna' do, etc.  There have been some management changes, but not enough.  I'd also like to see the business growing in a way that implied sustainability.  The recent round of funding helped a lot, but isn't quite enough to ensure the business will succeed long term.  

I'd really like to see them succeed, because its fun.

I for one anxiously await knowing whether you succeed.  I believe your portfolio has a reasonable chance of doin' ok, but I suspect the ROI will be a little lower than you hope.  Your loans are pretty young, so any estimate of default rate is gonna be real noisy.  


Thanks Fred.  In no way do I think I am smarter than anyone here.  It would be stupid to say so.  My "theory" is based on "times have changed" and the time is right for P2P lending.  I respect historical data, but in this case I am somewhat discounting it, because anyone who was going to P2P lending to get a loan in 2006-2008 must have been sub-sub prime cause banks were giving money away.  Now the exact oposite is true, banks won't lend to good credit customers.  This is why I believe there is an opportunity now.  Call me wishful thinking, hopeful, or even crazy.  But my money is litterally on the other side.

The X-factor for me is the concern with management raised on this board.  I'm trying to discern if people are just pissed cause they lost money (I would be too) or there is real management problems.  This is a relatively new business, so rules have to change on the fly.  I dont expect prosper to knock down every door of the homes of borrowers who are 60+ days late.  On a superficial level, I've spoken to Prosper a few times, don't remember the names.  One was general first level account support.  The other was the head of corporate accounts.  My interactions were limited, but I found them polite.  

I hope Prosper does well too.  Nigel Morris is no dummy.  He was thought to be the smarter between he and current CEO Rich Fairbank.

Kind Regards

You and I have a lot in common. My advice...take a long pause. Regards.
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ira01

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2010, 01:52:31 am »

Steve

What approximate ROI are you hoping for?

I'm targeting 12%

Don't take this the wrong way, but -- bwahahahahaha!

There are roughly 15,300 lenders with an average loan age > 730 days (2 years), and > 20 loans made.  Of those, exactly 13 have ROI's of 12% or more.  You need to be in the 99.9th percentile to do that.  Maybe you are -- but I wouldn't count on it if I were you.

ResearchPro is an excellent example -- he spent a lot of time crunching numbers, and created a whole mathematical model that he was convinced was going to get him an ROI of 10%.  With an average loan age of about 600 days, his ROI has plunged to around 4%.  And it will almost certainly be lower by the time he's done.

I know you think this time is different," but surely you know the usual result when people think that way.  Certainly the average borrower on Prosper today is better than in the past, due to Prosper raising (several times) the minimum credit score required to get a loan.  I believe that will make the performance of current lenders better than those in the past, but not enough to make Prosper a worthwhile investment.  Also, while you seem to believe that Prosper is now attracting excellent borrowers due to lending conditions elsewhere, you also state that your average portfolio interest rate is 28%.  I hate to tell you, but you are NOT attracting excellent borrowers paying those rates.  Even if your borrowers have good credit/Prosper scores, if they are willing to pay such high rates, there are facts about their credit and/or overall financial condition that you cannot see making them a much worse risk than you think.  You might want to read http://www.prospers.org/blogs/ira01/2008/08/09/loans_with_very_high_rates_for_their_cre.html.  Don't forget, even though Prosper provides more credit information than lenders got long ago, you still only get a small portion of the borrower's credit report -- much less than what a bank or other potential creditor sees.  

Also, despite what you say, there is still plenty of inexpensive credit available from mainstream sources for people with excellent credit.  I recently bought a new car with a five-year 0.0% interest rate loan.  Sure, that is subsidized by Toyota to help them sell cars -- but there are a ton of new car loans available even from credit unions for 5-6% -- those obviously aren't subsidized at all.  Even for unsecured loans, I get tons of balance transfer and no questions asked cash advance checks from my credit cards offering 12-month periods at around 5%, which would then go to 14% or so after the one year.  The origination fee is 3-4% (Prosper is 3% for all but AA borrowers, and .5% for them).  And sometimes I get even better offers.  

And don't even get me started on all the slimy ways that Prosper conducts its business.  

I think everyone here wishes you all the best (and you are certainly welcome) -- but you aren't going to hear us blowing sunshine up your ass about how much money you're going to make.  The reality is that you will probably not make much money, and certainly not enough to compensate you for the risk.
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Fred93

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2010, 01:59:31 am »

Nigel Morris is no dummy.  He was thought to be the smarter between he and current CEO Rich Fairbank.

This is an interesting subject.  I've been wonderin'... Has Morris caused any change at Prosper?  I was expecting him to replace some management or something.

We don't know whether he understands the warts and difficulties or whether he invested based on the "concept". 
« Last Edit: May 03, 2010, 02:03:18 am by Fred93 »
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xraider

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2010, 06:57:42 am »

We all wish you luck with your portfolio.  It WAS fun. which is why I loaned for nine months.  It stopped being fun when I realized that Prosper management and I did not share the same interests. 
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Beerbud1

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2010, 07:03:06 am »

Welcome and Good luck with your Prosper investing. We beleive different viewpoints are welcome. Just know that some of us have been burned, and badly.

Use caution and invest wisely, remember it's your money.
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