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Author Topic: New York Times piece re Raj Date - WOW!  (Read 22254 times)

pioneer11

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Re: New York Times piece re Raj Date - WOW!
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2010, 06:53:38 pm »

That is a really laughable response from Prosper.  When Prosper goes under their PR writers can get good jobs writing US History books for use in Texas high schools.

They shouldn't be jacking around with the NY Times.  The Times could bust them if they had a mind to it.

On the side, when did they start verifying borrowers?  Originally the claimed they did, then they claimed they didn't and now they have claimed on Facebook and on this blog piece that they do.
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ladeeda

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Re: New York Times piece re Raj Date - WOW!
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2010, 06:55:36 pm »

Quote
Obviously, neither Prosper, its employees nor the lobbyist community at large has anything substantive with which to respond to this article, other than hurling irrelevant insults.  This, of course, is nothing new, but pretty much the same thing we've been observing for the last 4 years.

What about the bullet points is not "substantive", out of curiosity? They seem to address several issues raised about Prosper in the NYT article.
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Mtnchick

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Re: New York Times piece re Raj Date - WOW!
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2010, 07:01:01 pm »

Quote
Obviously, neither Prosper, its employees nor the lobbyist community at large has anything substantive with which to respond to this article, other than hurling irrelevant insults.  This, of course, is nothing new, but pretty much the same thing we've been observing for the last 4 years.

What about the bullet points is not "substantive", out of curiosity? They seem to address several issues raised about Prosper in the NYT article.


Personally I would have addressed the conflict of interest issues first. Then the "they called us a bad name" points. Actually I wouldn't have written a rebuttal at all. Let Dates write it if he feels the need.
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ladeeda

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Re: New York Times piece re Raj Date - WOW!
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2010, 07:14:05 pm »

Quote
Obviously, neither Prosper, its employees nor the lobbyist community at large has anything substantive with which to respond to this article, other than hurling irrelevant insults.  This, of course, is nothing new, but pretty much the same thing we've been observing for the last 4 years.

What about the bullet points is not "substantive", out of curiosity? They seem to address several issues raised about Prosper in the NYT article.


Personally I would have addressed the conflict of interest issues first. Then the "they called us a bad name" points. Actually I wouldn't have written a rebuttal at all. Let Dates write it if he feels the need.

I see what you mean, but I'm not sure what Prosper could have said on that - any conflict of interest questions have to be determined by Treasury, the CFPB, Date, etc. And the article's approach was basically to slam Prosper in order to make a "guilt by association" claim about Date. Why else start the story by saying...

Quote
A senior adviser to Elizabeth Warren, hired to help start the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, is an investor in and, until recently, served as a director of a company that helps to arrange low-documentation loans for consumers with often-spotty credit histories.
(emphasis mine)

To have those claims in the first paragraph of an NYT article - that seems worth refuting if it's possible, no?
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TotoMMB

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Re: New York Times piece re Raj Date - WOW!
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2010, 08:21:24 pm »

Quote
Obviously, neither Prosper, its employees nor the lobbyist community at large has anything substantive with which to respond to this article, other than hurling irrelevant insults.  This, of course, is nothing new, but pretty much the same thing we've been observing for the last 4 years.

What about the bullet points is not "substantive", out of curiosity? They seem to address several issues raised about Prosper in the NYT article.


Personally I would have addressed the conflict of interest issues first. Then the "they called us a bad name" points. Actually I wouldn't have written a rebuttal at all. Let Dates write it if he feels the need.

I see what you mean, but I'm not sure what Prosper could have said on that - any conflict of interest questions have to be determined by Treasury, the CFPB, Date, etc. And the article's approach was basically to slam Prosper in order to make a "guilt by association" claim about Date. Why else start the story by saying...

Quote
A senior adviser to Elizabeth Warren, hired to help start the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, is an investor in and, until recently, served as a director of a company that helps to arrange low-documentation loans for consumers with often-spotty credit histories.
(emphasis mine)

To have those claims in the first paragraph of an NYT article - that seems worth refuting if it's possible, no?


Because the company has failed half of it's customers 40% of the time.
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wftrust

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Re: New York Times piece re Raj Date - WOW!
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2010, 08:35:18 pm »

Quote
Obviously, neither Prosper, its employees nor the lobbyist community at large has anything substantive with which to respond to this article, other than hurling irrelevant insults.  This, of course, is nothing new, but pretty much the same thing we've been observing for the last 4 years.

What about the bullet points is not "substantive", out of curiosity? They seem to address several issues raised about Prosper in the NYT article.


To add to Urbi’s post, I felt there should be some written documentation on why various people here think this response is misleading, ineffective and inaccurate on Prosper’s part.

Taking each point Prosper made:
The misstatements and misrepresentations include the following:

■Suggesting Prosper is a sub-prime lender: obviously refuted by the fact that our average bureau score of borrowers is over 700. In fact it was 715 in September.

Prosper does in fact have an overall average lower than 700 for all loans created. Using just a current month and saying "see we are good" doesn’t tell the whole story (to be fair neither did the NYT piece). So this is a misleading point. Prosper would have been better served to take the approach that this is a new platform and technology and it is taking time to work out the bugs in the system to make this the best for all parties. Improvements have been made since the last release, blah blah blah….

■Suggesting Prosper arranges low-doc loans. The fact is that our underwriting and verification procedures are highly rigorous, and include extensive documentation of employment, income, and identity of the borrowers.

Again, unless things have changed dramatically with current loans (enough to offset all the previous loans made), the great majority of the outstanding loans are low doc loans. And even the Docs requested can be easily made/forged with any simple software in existence today. In the past Prosper made no bones about only doing a “sampling” of the loans originated. There is little to even prove these folks are who they say they are, no one even meets them face to face for gosh sake!

Sub-prime implies to me that these folks should be charged a much higher interest rate to account for the risk, which they sometimes are. So how is the NYT article misleading? They are sub-prime and for the most part existing loans are low doc loans. Why else would AA rated borrowers come to Prosper to borrow money at higher rates than they could get from a bank if they really are in the situation they say they are.


■Suggesting that there is uncontrolled risk and high losses in Prosper’s loan portfolio. As clearly illustrated in our recent report on risk performance, losses on assets booked in the last 15 months are beating expectations and are 1/3 of the loss rate on loans booked in 2007 and 2008.

While I appreciate that the recent loans appear to be performing better than the previous loans in total. That has been mainly due to the limitations prosper has put into place of the quality of the borrower. That is good, but only goes part way to the truth. The previous experience has been that many loans start defaulting after the 1 ½ year mark. So to point to loans that are only just now reaching 15 months and saying “look what a great job we are doing” is wrong on Prospers part also. Since Prosper started they have had a huge overall default rate, the NYT article was correct in that assessment.

Prosper would be better served talking up the changes here not worrying about the “suggested” uncontrolled risk and high losses. And they could have also talked up the problems that the consumer loaning industry has had in general since the economic troubles began.


■The reporter failed to note Prosper’s long advocacy of consumers and the fact that Prosper’s CEO Chris Larsen has been a champion of consumer privacy and protection for over 10 years.

I have not seen the evidence for this, not saying it is not true, it is just a baseless statement in a rebuttal. For Prosper to make the statement without cites is the same misleading type of statements that we have heard many times before. Prosper would have been better suited to respond with specific examples of Chris’s consumer advocate largess…

■Suggesting Raj’s relationship with Prosper was “rarely reported” when in fact it was properly disclosed in all relevant SEC filings and on our website.
Shortly after the article appeared, another industry journalist observed the egregious slant of the article and refuted it with a blog posting entitled “A Failed Dirt-Finding Expedition On The CFPB”.

This has already been pointed out in other responses on why this is misleading.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 08:40:10 pm by wftrust »
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ira01

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Re: New York Times piece re Raj Date - WOW!
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2010, 09:45:48 pm »

By the way, Prosper's refute is way too retarded to not safe-keep.  They'd be crazy to leave this piece of trash up on their blog without modifying it.

This refute is so silly and poorly conceived it makes you long for the days when Shira Levina was arranging conference calls.

Quote
The misstatements and misrepresentations include the following:

■Suggesting Prosper is a sub-prime lender: obviously refuted by the fact that our average bureau score of borrowers is over 700. In fact it was 715 in September.

And what was it back in the early days, when Prosper used to allow NC borrowers to get loans, and the HR range went down to what 5xx?  Prosper has raised the minimum credit score for borrowers several times in its less than 4 year history.  I think it is perfectly accurate to suggest that Prosper is a sub-prime lender -- especially since Prosper itself loves to talk about its $200M in loans, which counts loans all the way back to Prosper's inception.  Prosper can't have its cake and eat it too.

But this "refutation" isn't half as ridiculous (or should I say Rediculous?) as the next point:

Quote
■Suggesting Prosper arranges low-doc loans. The fact is that our underwriting and verification procedures are highly rigorous, and include extensive documentation of employment, income, and identity of the borrowers.

Hmmmm, I wonder where the NYT could have gotten this idea from?  Maybe from Prosper's OWN CURRENT LENDER REGISTRATION AGREEMENT:

Quote
10. Prosper's Right to Verify Information and Cancel Funding.

* * *
d. In most instances, Prosper and WebBank do not verify the income, employment and occupation or other information provided by borrowers in listings. The borrower's income, employment and occupation in listings are self-reported.
http://www.prosper.com/account/common/agreement_view.aspx?agreement_type_id=8

Is that not the very definition of a low or no-doc (or "liar") loan?

It would sure be nice if the NYT called Prosper's "refutation" out in a subsequent piece.  
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Fred93

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Re: New York Times piece re Raj Date - WOW!
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2010, 11:15:40 pm »

Quote
■Suggesting Prosper arranges low-doc loans. The fact is that our underwriting and verification procedures are highly rigorous, and include extensive documentation of employment, income, and identity of the borrowers.

Hmmmm, I wonder where the NYT could have gotten this idea from?  Maybe from Prosper's OWN CURRENT LENDER REGISTRATION AGREEMENT:

Quote
10. Prosper's Right to Verify Information and Cancel Funding.

* * *
d. In most instances, Prosper and WebBank do not verify the income, employment and occupation or other information provided by borrowers in listings. The borrower's income, employment and occupation in listings are self-reported.
http://www.prosper.com/account/common/agreement_view.aspx?agreement_type_id=8

Is that not the very definition of a low or no-doc (or "liar") loan?

Hmm.  Making public statements that are at odds with their own official documents.  Not most excellent behavior, is it?

The lender agreement made its way into some SEC filing, didn't it?

ira01

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Re: New York Times piece re Raj Date - WOW!
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2010, 12:33:14 am »

Hmm.  Making public statements that are at odds with their own official documents.  Not most excellent behavior, is it?

If only someone would write an open letter telling Prosper "Don't Mislead People."   :ninja:



BTW, Fred, do you know that the link to your Open Letter #1 on your blog is broken?
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ladeeda

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Re: New York Times piece re Raj Date - WOW!
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2010, 12:49:28 am »

Hmm.  Making public statements that are at odds with their own official documents.  Not most excellent behavior, is it?

From the Prospectus:

Quote
For all borrower loans, Prosper verifies the borrower member’s identity against data from consumer reporting agencies and other identity and anti-fraud verification databases. Borrower listings are posted without our obtaining any documentation of the borrower’s ability to afford the loan. In limited instances, we verify the income, employment, occupation or other information provided by Prosper borrower members in listings. This verification is normally done after the listing has been created and bidding is substantially complete, but before the loan is funded, and therefore the results of our verification are not reflected in the borrower listings.

...

Listings are selected for verification based on the requested loan amount, the borrower’s Prosper Rating, Debt-to-Income ratio and stated income. For the period from July 14, 2009 through December 31, 2009, 39% of listings that had bids totaling 70% or more of the requested loan amount (1,099 out of 2,802) were selected for income and employment verification. Of this population, 182 (11%) failed to respond or provided unsatisfactory information in response to the request. This verification is normally done after the listing has been created and bidding is substantially completed, but before the loan is funded, and therefore the results of our verification are not reflected in the borrower listings.

In the same period, about 2,000 loans were originated. Assuming that all 917 successful verifications became loans, roughly 45% of the funded loans would have gone through income and employment verification. I agree that, based on the stats in the Prospectus, Prosper may have overstated its case here.
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TotoMMB

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Re: New York Times piece re Raj Date - WOW!
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2010, 01:02:56 am »

Maybe I'm making this up, but aren't 1.0/2.0 borrowers, with good histories (or at least lack of bad ones), grandfathered into 3.0? So, there could still technically be sub-prime borrowers out there and active.
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TotoMMB

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Re: New York Times piece re Raj Date - WOW!
« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2010, 01:06:49 am »

Maybe I'm making this up, but aren't 1.0/2.0 borrowers, with good histories (or at least lack of bad ones), grandfathered into 3.0? So, there could still technically be sub-prime borrowers out there and active.

Damn, as of 11:00 pm, 10/28...434 listings...222 of them have scores under 700. Fascinating!  :o
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TotoMMB

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Re: New York Times piece re Raj Date - WOW!
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2010, 01:09:14 am »

Maybe I'm making this up, but aren't 1.0/2.0 borrowers, with good histories (or at least lack of bad ones), grandfathered into 3.0? So, there could still technically be sub-prime borrowers out there and active.

Damn, as of 11:00 pm, 10/28...434 listings...222 of them have scores under 700. Fascinating!  :o

To add a third layer in this conversation w/ myself...at least no one is under 600. There are 5 between 600-619. Phew.  ::)
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Fred93

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Re: New York Times piece re Raj Date - WOW!
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2010, 01:56:06 am »

BTW, Fred, do you know that the link to your Open Letter #1 on your blog is broken?

No I didn't.  Now fixed. 

ladeeda

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Re: New York Times piece re Raj Date - WOW!
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2010, 09:42:44 am »

Maybe I'm making this up, but aren't 1.0/2.0 borrowers, with good histories (or at least lack of bad ones), grandfathered into 3.0? So, there could still technically be sub-prime borrowers out there and active.

Damn, as of 11:00 pm, 10/28...434 listings...222 of them have scores under 700. Fascinating!  :o

To add a third layer in this conversation w/ myself...at least no one is under 600. There are 5 between 600-619. Phew.  ::)

A few points on this:

- If the average credit score on loans is 700, then obviously there are going to be listings with scores lower than that. That's just basic math.
- If you're going to use a simple score cut-off, the industry standard is either 640 or 620, not 700.
- The crux, though, is that there is more to being a "subprime lender" than simply having some customers with scores less than 700. If that were your definition, you'd need to lump in most of America's financial services companies into the same category.
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