Prospers.ORG Prosper Forum

Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to Prospers.ORG!   Login here

Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down

Author Topic: What Happens if Prosper 3.0 Goes Bankrupt?  (Read 18998 times)

onthefence

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +0/-3
  • Posts: 5736
    • View Profile
What Happens if Prosper 3.0 Goes Bankrupt?
« on: August 14, 2009, 08:39:17 am »

Given that we know Prosper has funds to last them until the end of this year.  What happens to new loans if Prosper 3.0 goes Bankrupt?

Fred put for an idea challenging my assumptions & I think it's worth exploring
I know several people here keep saying that over and over, but I just don't think its a very significant issue.  Here's why:  Sure, if they go belly up, there will be a big set of liabilities, ie the notes sold to "lenders", but Prosper will also have a big set of assets, the loans made to borrowers.  These assets will after a short time in operation greatly dominate Prosper's other assets, and the notes will similarly dominate Prosper's liabilities, so the main assets and liabilities in a bankruptcy would be the loans and the notes.

? If Prosper goes bankrupt, are the 'investor' notes really secured notes?  Are those investors first in line to recover assets from those loans?  Or could some other entity jump in line to collect from the Prosper 3.0 loans?

? The prospectus allows Prosper free reign to do pretty much anything with the new borrower loans, including selling them at any time.  What is the potential loss to 'investors' if prosper sells those loans?  At their last sale, Prosper could only get 1.5% for 3+ month late notes.  Prosper specifically stated that:
* debt buyers had very little interest in assets that they knew every little about,
* past debt buyers did not try to buy their loans again
* debt buyers placed conditions on the sale that Prosper found unacceptable to them (Fiduciary Fail)

? Prosper could sell the servicing rights to a 3rd party.  How much would that cost 'investors'?

? How much of the 3.0 borrower loans could be eaten up in litigation & lawyer fees?  With a huge pile of cash available, I don't see Prosper's other potential creditors giving up without a fight & a cut.
Logged
Lobby permission granted

cubbiesnextyr

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +554/-752
  • Posts: 27297
  • Suspended since 12/13/07
    • View Profile
Re: What Happens if Prosper 3.0 Goes Bankrupt?
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2009, 08:41:26 am »

You need to change all the if's to when's.
Logged

alexpkeaton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +1742/-3377
  • Posts: 7192
    • View Profile
Re: What Happens if Prosper 3.0 Goes Bankrupt?
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2009, 08:46:54 am »

I doubt if Prosper has a lot of other creditors. I mean, do they owe a lot of back rent for their office or something? It's not like anyone would actually loan Prosper money, it'd be way too risky.
Logged

Investar

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Posts: 382
    • View Profile
Re: What Happens if Prosper 3.0 Goes Bankrupt?
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2009, 10:13:36 am »

What Happens if Prosper 3.0 Goes Bankrupt?
Page 30 S-1/A PROSPER S-1 AMENDMENT 6 (final 07/13/09)

If we were to become subject to a bankruptcy or similar proceeding, the rights of the holders of the Notes could be uncertain, and payments on the Notes may be limited, suspended or stopped.  Although Prosper intends to grant the indenture trustee a security interest in its right to receive payment under the corresponding borrower loans, the Notes themselves are unsecured and holders of the Notes do not directly have a security interest in the corresponding borrower loans or the proceeds of those corresponding borrower loans.  The recovery, if any, of a holder on a Note may be substantially delayed and substantially less than the principal and interest due and to become due on the Note.

BORROWERS MIGHT QUIT PAYING

A bankruptcy or similar proceeding of Prosper may cause delays in borrower payments.  Borrowers may delay payments to Prosper on account of borrower loans because of the uncertainties occasioned by a bankruptcy or similar proceeding of Prosper, even if the borrowers have no legal right to do so, and such delay would reduce, at least for a time, the funds that might otherwise be available to pay the Notes corresponding to those borrower loans.  In addition, the commencement of the bankruptcy or similar proceeding may, as a matter of law, prevent Prosper from making regular payments on the Notes, even if the funds to make such payments are available.  Because the indenture trustee would be required to enforce its security interest in Prosper’s right to payment under the borrower loans in a bankruptcy or similar proceeding of Prosper, the trustee’s ability to make payments under the Notes would be delayed, which may effectively reduce the value of any recovery that a holder of a Note may receive (and no such recovery can be assured) by the time any recovery is available.
 
EVEN IF THEY PAY YOUR INVESTMENT MAY NOT PRODUCE

Interest accruing upon and following a bankruptcy or similar proceeding of Prosper may not be paid.  In bankruptcy or similar proceeding of Prosper, interest accruing on the Notes during the proceeding may not be part of the allowed claim of a holder of a Note.  If the holder of a Note receives a recovery on the Note (and no such recovery can be assured), any such recovery may be based on, and limited to, the claim of the holder of the Note for principal and for interest accrued up to the date of the bankruptcy or similar proceeding, but not thereafter.  Because a bankruptcy or similar proceeding may take months or years to complete, a claim based on principal and on interest only up to the start of the bankruptcy or similar proceeding may be substantially less than a claim based on principal and on interest through the end of the bankruptcy or similar proceeding.
 
IN FACT, THE "RIGHTS" TO YOUR NOTES MAY BE STRIPPED FROM YOU ALTOGETHER

In a bankruptcy or similar proceeding of Prosper, there may be uncertainty regarding whether a holder of a Note has any priority right to payment from the corresponding borrower loan.  If we or the indenture trustee fail to perfect the security interest properly, you may be required to share the proceeds of the borrower loan upon which your Note is dependent for payment with Prosper’s other creditors.  In addition, if proceeds from the corresponding borrower loan are either held by Prosper in the clearing account at the time of the bankruptcy or similar proceeding of Prosper, or not yet received by Prosper from borrowers at the time of the commencement of the bankruptcy or similar proceeding, such proceeds may be at greater risk than those proceeds that are already held by Prosper in the funding account at the time of the bankruptcy or similar proceeding.  To the extent that proceeds of the corresponding borrower loan would be shared with other creditors of Prosper, any secured or priority rights of such other creditors may cause the proceeds to be distributed to such other creditors before any distribution is made to you on your Note.
 
AND YOU MIGHT NEVER SEE A PENNY AGAIN

In a bankruptcy or similar proceeding of Prosper, there may be uncertainty regarding the rights of a holder of a Note, if any, to payment from funds in the master servicing account.  If a payment is made on a borrower loan corresponding to a Note before a bankruptcy or similar proceeding of Prosper is commenced, and those funds are held in the master servicing account and have not been used by Prosper to make payments on the Note as of the date the bankruptcy or similar proceeding is commenced, there can be no assurance that Prosper will or will be able to use such funds to make payments on the Note.  Other creditors of Prosper may be deemed to have rights to such funds that are equal to or greater than the rights of the holder of the Note.  See “About the Platform—Loan Servicing and Collections” for more information.

AND ON TOP OF THAT, YOU COULD LOOSE YOUR CASH ACCOUNT TOO
 
In a bankruptcy or similar proceeding of Prosper, there may be uncertainty regarding the rights of a holder of a Note, if any, to access funds in the funding account.  We currently maintain the funding account at Wells Fargo Bank, N.A. “for the benefit of” our lender members. This so-called “FBO account” is a pooled account titled in our name “for the benefit of” our lender members. Although we believe that amounts funded by our lender members into the FBO account at Wells Fargo should not be subject to claims of creditors of Prosper other than the lender members for whose benefit the funds are held, the legal title to the FBO account, and the attendant right to administer the FBO account would be property of Prosper’s bankruptcy estate.  As a result, if Prosper were to file for bankruptcy protection, the legal right to administer the funds in the FBO account would vest with the bankruptcy trustee or debtor in possession.  In that case, while neither Prosper nor its creditors should be able to reach those funds, the indenture trustee or the lender members may have to seek a bankruptcy court order lifting the automatic stay and permitting them to withdraw their funds.  Lender members may suffer delays in accessing their funds in the FBO account as a result.  Moreover, United States Bankruptcy Courts have broad powers and, if Prosper has failed to properly segregate or handle lender members’ funds, a bankruptcy court could determine that some or all of such funds were beneficially owned by Prosper and therefore that they became available to the creditors of Prosper generally.  See “About the Platform—Loan Servicing and Collections” for more information.


PROSPER S-1 AMENDMENT 6 (the final one 07/13/09) IS THIS ONE:
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1416265/000141626509000033/0001416265-09-000033-index.htm
« Last Edit: August 14, 2009, 10:16:19 am by Investar »
Logged

onthefence

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +0/-3
  • Posts: 5736
    • View Profile
Re: What Happens if Prosper 3.0 Goes Bankrupt?
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2009, 10:26:44 am »

Thank you Investar.

OK.  So my initial assumptions are correct.  
* The 'investor' notes are unsecured.
* Nothing prevents Prosper from taking out loans on borrower loans.
* The prospect of Prosper going bankrupt is a very real significant risk that must be accounted for prior to investing.

Fred93 has made a reasonable argument that any loans made to prosper could be of small proportion to the new notes created.  But,
* The last bit of financial information we have on Prosper is from March 2009.  For everything else, we are in the dark.
* Prosper could over time max out business loans to itself using the borrower loans as collateral.

I think it is incredibly foolish to invest money with Prosper unless you know that Prosper has at least 3 years of operating capital (or it's operational expenses are at least covered by income).

That 2Mill/Month estimate of expenses is just an estimate based on their prospectus.  What if they take out loans in a media blitz binge in order to increase loans and it doesn't pan out?

Lobby?
« Last Edit: August 14, 2009, 10:31:03 am by onthefence »
Logged
Lobby permission granted

Investar

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Posts: 382
    • View Profile
Re: What Happens if Prosper 3.0 Goes Bankrupt?
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2009, 10:35:49 am »

I gave you the long. Here's the short of it:

If successful the pending class action lawsuit will bankrupt Prosper. They face a buy-back of $175,000,000 of loans/notes. Of them, some $70 million are worthless. They can use the "good" loans as collateral to borrow and finance the repurchase, but where are they gonna get $70 million to fill the big black hole full of of crap loans?

As for "what's in your wallet?" Prosper borrowed $40 million in 2006 to fund their startup. They have never been profitable. Their "burn rate" is easily over one million dollars a month. By their own admission to the SEC they will be about out of money by Christmas. They desperately need a fresh infusion of $25 or $30 million working capital just to continue operations for the next few years. Now enter the need for $70 million to cover that cavernous hole full of of bad loans. Uh-huh.

Prosper discusses it.......
Page F-27 PROSPER S-1 AMENDMENT 6 (final 07/13/09)

As reflected in the accompanying financial statements, Prosper has incurred net losses, negative cash flows from operations since inception, and has an accumulated deficit of approximately $33.1 million as of March 31, 2009.  For the three months ended March 31, 2009 the Company incurred a net loss of $2.9 million.  For the three months ended March 31, 2009 the Company had negative cash flow from operations of $2.4 million. Since its inception, Prosper has financed its operations primarily through equity financing from various sources. The Company is dependent upon raising additional capital or debt financing to fund its current operating plan.  Failure to obtain sufficient debt and equity financings and, ultimately, to achieve profitable operations and positive cash flows from operations could adversely affect Prosper’s ability to achieve its business objectives and continue as a going concern.  Further, there can be no assurances as to the availability or terms upon which the required financing and capital might be available.

Liquidity and Capital Resources (page 98)

We have incurred operating losses since our inception and we anticipate that we will continue to incur net losses through 2010.  For the periods ended March 31, 2009 and 2008 we had negative cash flows from operations of $2.4 million and $2.7 million, respectively. For the fiscal years ended December 31, 2008 and 2007, we had negative cash flows from operations of $9.9 million and $9.5 million, respectively.  Net cash used in operating activities from inception through March 31, 2009 consisted mostly of headcount costs, expenses for consultants and temporary personnel, marketing and advertising, and other professional service providers to the Company.  Additionally, since our inception through March 31, 2009, we have an accumulated deficit of $33.1 million. To date, we have financed our operations with proceeds from the sale of equity securities.  At March 31, 2009, we had approximately $7.4 million in cash and cash equivalents, which we believe will be sufficient to fund our operations through 2009.  We are dependent upon raising additional capital or debt financing to fund our current operating plan.  Failure to obtain sufficient debt and equity financings and, ultimately, to achieve profitable operations and positive cash flows from operations could adversely affect our ability to achieve our business objectives and continue as a going concern.  Further, an unfavorable outcome of the class action lawsuit at the high end of the range could hinder Prosper’s ability to continue its operations, absent other extenuating circumstances. There can be no assurances as to the availability or terms upon which the required financing and capital might be available.
Logged

mothandrust

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +4817/-11078
  • Posts: 22875
    • View Profile
Re: What Happens if Prosper 3.0 Goes Bankrupt?
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2009, 10:49:36 am »

I think it is incredibly foolish to invest money with Prosper unless you know that Prosper has at least 3 years of operating capital (or it's operational expenses are at least covered by income).

Failing that, you need a commeasurate reward to compensate you for the risk you're taking.

According to EricsCC, among lenders with 20+ loans and average portfolio age 720-740 days, there are only 18 out of 700+ that are making 5%+, and zero that are over 8%.

So even if you could do what's never been done, Prosper could go bankrupt and you lose everything.

Second for Lobby.
Logged
"Fake quotes will ruin the internet" -- Benjamin Franklin

bamalucky

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +417/-417
  • Posts: 42756
    • View Profile
Re: What Happens if Prosper 3.0 Goes Bankrupt?
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2009, 11:29:35 am »

How ironic it would be for the court to take Researchpro's "good" loans to pay me for my defaults..

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
Logged
There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.

God-Father

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Posts: 3189
  • Pay up!
    • View Profile
Re: What Happens if Prosper 3.0 Goes Bankrupt?
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2009, 11:52:12 am »

How ironic it would be for the court to take Researchpro's "good" loans to pay me for my defaults..

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
Sort of a moot point.  Erics is now showing RP with an ROI less than 10% and average age of 345 days.
Logged

ira01

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +143/-10365
  • Posts: 48199
    • View Profile
Re: What Happens if Prosper 3.0 Goes Bankrupt?
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2009, 12:09:50 pm »

Thank you Investar.

OK.  So my initial assumptions are correct.  
* The 'investor' notes are unsecured.
* Nothing prevents Prosper from taking out loans on borrower loans.
* The prospect of Prosper going bankrupt is a very real significant risk that must be accounted for prior to investing.

Yep.

Quote
Fred93 has made a reasonable argument that any loans made to prosper could be of small proportion to the new notes created.  But,
* The last bit of financial information we have on Prosper is from March 2009.  For everything else, we are in the dark.
* Prosper could over time max out business loans to itself using the borrower loans as collateral.

Yep.  Who knows what creative methods Prosper may come up with for stripping any equity in the Notes from lenders in favor of itself.  In addition, there are other ways that Prosper can screw lenders in a BK.  For example, recent unpaid wages are a priority claim in BK.  Thus, if Prosper doesn't pay its employees for two months before BK, those employees would have a priority claim for those wages that would take precedence over an unsecured non-priority claim (such as by the lenders). 

Quote
I think it is incredibly foolish to invest money with Prosper unless you know that Prosper has at least 3 years of operating capital (or it's operational expenses are at least covered by income).

This is the bottom line -- as I've said before, IMHO you would have to have rocks in your head instead of brains to invest 1 cent in Prosper loans given the current realities.  Maybe if you could get a sufficiently high return on your money, it would be worth the risk.  But IMO, that would require returns far higher than possible with Prosper.  Throw in the fact that the mean and median lender ROIs of lenders with >20 loans and an average loan age greater than 1 year are NEGATIVE, and why in the world should anyone lend on Prosper?
Logged
If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention.

Investar

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Posts: 382
    • View Profile
Re: What Happens if Prosper 3.0 Goes Bankrupt?
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2009, 12:35:03 pm »

How ironic it would be for the court to take Researchpro's "good" loans to pay me for my defaults..

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

As this litigation progresses and Prosper sees their hopes dashed, they will suddenly declare bankruptcy BEFORE THE PROCEEDING CONCLUDES so that the already dry well the lawsuit is wanting to dip into will be nothing but a mirage on the desert floor. When the lenders win (notice I said when) they'll get next to nothing anyway. The crumbs will be whatever pittance can be extracted from the individually named defendants. Rosen and Green/Welling know this. That's why they came back with a second try to snag three of Prosper's board members whom the judge excused the first time. Between those 3 and the 4 others named, they hope to extract a recovery sufficient to at least cover their costs. Meanwhile on Prosper's side, Morrison & Foerster is gonna drag this thing out to infinity. They are using every trick in the book and they know most of 'em.

How will you know when Prosper has thrown in the towel? There will be odd financial filings at the SEC, most hidden under cover of a "Confidential treatment order." This will be Prosper transferring themselves and their virtual marketplace "off the books" to a holding company of some sort — away from the current class action suitors and their future bankruptcy judge. Their office furniture and the coffee pots will remain available for sale at the bankruptcy auction.

WARNING: the above scenario is pure speculation and unsubstantiated conjecture! It is subject to review for plausibility and implausibility by forum members well versed in the legal crafts (which I am not).
Logged

bamalucky

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +417/-417
  • Posts: 42756
    • View Profile
Re: What Happens if Prosper 3.0 Goes Bankrupt?
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2009, 01:31:28 pm »

Quote
The crumbs will be whatever pittance can be extracted from the individually named defendants.

They are insured. Thats the real well of $$
Logged
There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.

Investar

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Posts: 382
    • View Profile
Re: What Happens if Prosper 3.0 Goes Bankrupt?
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2009, 01:44:02 pm »

Quote
The crumbs will be whatever pittance can be extracted from the individually named defendants.

They are insured. Thats the real well of $$

You got it. Now, what does that amount to? Shall we say a million each for sure? If policies are $10 million each you're getting somewhere. 
Logged

Investar

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Posts: 382
    • View Profile
Re: What Happens if Prosper 3.0 Goes Bankrupt?
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2009, 05:34:14 am »

Quote

The crumbs will be whatever pittance can be extracted from the individually named defendants.

They are insured. Thats the real well of $$

You got it. Now, what does that amount to?

As I read it, nothing.

PROSPER SEC FORM 10-Q 06/30/09 Pg 39: "On November 26, 2008, a class action lawsuit was filed against us the Superior Court of California ... individual defendants have filed a demurrer to the First Amended Complaint, and on June 11, 2009 the court sustained the demurrer with leave to amend. Prosper’s insurance carrier has denied coverage. On July 10, 2009 the plaintiffs filed a Second Amended Complaint alleging violations ... and seeks damages in an unspecified amount and rescission against Prosper and the other named defendants, as well as ..."
Logged

ira01

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +143/-10365
  • Posts: 48199
    • View Profile
Re: What Happens if Prosper 3.0 Goes Bankrupt?
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2009, 11:34:46 am »

Quote

The crumbs will be whatever pittance can be extracted from the individually named defendants.

They are insured. Thats the real well of $$

You got it. Now, what does that amount to?

As I read it, nothing.

PROSPER SEC FORM 10-Q 06/30/09 Pg 39: "On November 26, 2008, a class action lawsuit was filed against us the Superior Court of California ... individual defendants have filed a demurrer to the First Amended Complaint, and on June 11, 2009 the court sustained the demurrer with leave to amend. Prosper’s insurance carrier has denied coverage. On July 10, 2009 the plaintiffs filed a Second Amended Complaint alleging violations ... and seeks damages in an unspecified amount and rescission against Prosper and the other named defendants, as well as ..."

That might mean "as to Prosper."  The individual defendant's insurance carrier(s) (assuming there is one or more) may not have denied coverage.
Logged
If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention.
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up