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[Urbi_et_Orbi]

People seem to have a huge sense of entitlement, expecting to have all the things they see others have (and have it NOW), rather than obtain the education, live within their means, work and plan ahead.

[jmathree]

Wow, just wow!  Thanks for the help. Looking at all those people I trusted and tried to help, really puts P2P lending in a different perspective.

Still can't figure out why I'm such an eternal optimist. I still believe there remains a future in P2P lending. However, I now know there are some people doomed to fail. Why does Kiva work? How do we rekindle ethics and a sense of shame in American people?

 

The welfare state we're creating is destroying the morals of our society.  While I believe in helping those who truly truly need help, (i.e. single moms, the truly handicapped, and the elderly) we have a welfare/medicaid/food stamps/disability/etc. system that is designed to buy votes.  My sister works as an auditor for the state.  She's audited the medicaid system several times--finding providers and beneficiaries defrauding the system.  The state only chooses to prosecute the providers while the fraudulent beneficiaries face no repercussions. 

I've known (not friends, but acquaintances) who chose not to purchase health insurance through their employer because all they had to do was lie and get on medicaid.  I knew one girl who married a young man who'd inherited over $50K in Wal-Mart stock (enough assets to DQ them from medicaid) so they just lied and said they had no assets so she could have medicaid pay for the prenatal care and the birth of her child. 

I knew another lady who got a $100K+ settlement from a car accident.  She was on welfare, so she called and asked if this would affect her welfare.  The woman at the Department of Human Services told her "Not if you don't put it in the bank."  So she kept getting her welfare and blew through the money and now has nothing to show for it.  By the way, this woman also told me it wasn't worth driving 30 miles to go to work because she calculated the hourly wage not on the wage itself, but by deducting her welfare from her would-be gross pay, then dividing by the number of hours she'd work.

My 3rd cousin married a man who at 20 was deemed disabled because he was too fat to work.  (I'm sure they put it in much more politically correct language.  )  A man who ran a store where we used to live told me of healthy, 20 year old males making purchases with food stamps.

These are prime examples (from the 90's, when their were help wanted signs on virtually every commercial storefront) of the entitlement attitude urbi refers to above and these are just a few that I know of.  The best help these people could receive would be for our gov't to tell them you're capable of working--find a job, you have the means to buy health insurance--purchase it yourself, you're too fat to work--here's a construction job to get you in shape.

I know these programs were started with the best of intentions and that there are truly needy recipients.  I don't think we need to completely cut these programs, but our gov't should investigate every applicant and prosecute fraud.  As long as we foster a sense of entitlement rather than a sense of accomplishment, this will get worse and worse IMO.  I'm all for helping single moms whose husbands abandoned them, the "truly handicapped," and the elderly, but these others lose all self-respect which leads to their loss of respect for all others.  This in turn destroys any inhibition to separating you from your money by any means possible. 

<opens self up to attacks from bleeding hearts>

[iLIE]

The welfare state we're creating is destroying the morals of our society.

I don't know about the morals part,but it's destroying peoples work ethic.I just hope inflation outpaces welfare & these people on it return to what welfare was intended.

IMO welfare was supposed to be a helping hand,not a lifestyle choice

[Mtnchick]

I know these programs were started with the best of intentions and that there are truly needy recipients.  I don't think we need to completely cut these programs, but our gov't should investigate every applicant and prosecute fraud.  As long as we foster a sense of entitlement rather than a sense of accomplishment, this will get worse and worse IMO.  I'm all for helping single moms whose husbands abandoned them, the "truly handicapped," and the elderly, but these others lose all self-respect which leads to their loss of respect for all others.  This in turn destroys any inhibition to separating you from your money by any means possible. 

<opens self up to attacks from bleeding hearts>

+1

[Beachey]

<poof>

[iLIE]

I don't think blaming 1 president or another solves anything.Theres plenty of blame to go around.

We keep making the same poor choices in our elected officials.I'm sure this is why Obama is so popular.(people view him as change)

At some point in the next 10-20 years this country has to make a radical change or we will implode in a revolt IMO.

I know to some it sounds like taking freedoms away,but i don't believe you have the freedom to lay around on your sorry ass while I & other taxpayers support you.

[jmathree]

<opens self up to attacks from bleeding hearts>

Does asking for more than anecdotal evidence make me a bleeding heart?

These are prime examples (from the 90's, when their were help wanted signs on virtually every commercial storefront) of the entitlement attitude urbi refers to above and these are just a few that I know of. 

Is this pre or post the Clinton-era welfare reform?  Am I supposed to be shocked some people take advantage of the system.  So do we cut off the 95%+ of people who legitimately need help because there are scammers out there?

 

These were all people I knew personally (except the 3rd cousin's husband, but I trust the source on that one) in the latter half of the '90's, so that would be post-(supposed)welfare reform and since I'm simply calling for investigation of applicants and prosecution of fraud I consider this evidence enough of such a need.  I'd hate to think the government would have to spend millions more on a study to conclude that fraud exists in these programs.

So now I ask, do you have data to support your claim that 95%+ of benficiaries of entitlement programs legitimately need help?

Will you acknowledge that the bailout of Bear Stearns, farm subsidies going to huge agribusinesses  are as egregious forms of welfare as the examples you cite?

I have acknowledged the Bear Stearns fiasco and others as corporate welfare in some other topic (I can't recall exactly where, but I'll try to find the thread.)

I agree that these programs could be improved.  I think one of the biggest problem is the all or nothing approach of many of these programs.  The example you cite of the 100k+ settlement recipient, would we all have been off if we had allowed her to wean herself off welfare than the threat of just cutting her off.  Some of the best welfare reform I have heard of is allowing people to take jobs and establish themselves before completely cutting off their welfare.  You don't change people's habits over night.

IMO, we would have all been better off telling her "You have more of a start than most people in this country ever get, now go make something of it."  Why is it so difficult to comprehend that if people are held responsible for their own actions, they'll be more likely to learn from their mistakes and less likely to repeat them.  If someone is capable of working but is allowed and/or encouraged to obtain entitlement benefits, this system doesn't help them overcome their difficulties, instead it sustains them in unproductive lifestyles and fosters a sense of resentment toward those who are productive.

**Note:  The opinions stated above are exactly that, opinions.  I have neither commissioned nor conducted any scientific study, but arrived at my conclusions based on a lifetime of observations of the people around me--successful and unsuccessful, rich and poor, intelligent and dense, tall and short, fat and skinny, etc.

[pioneer11]

What happened to the original topic?

[Beachey]

<poof>

[msava]

The welfare state we're creating is destroying the morals of our society.

I don't know about the morals part,but it's destroying peoples work ethic.I just hope inflation outpaces welfare & these people on it return to what welfare was intended.

IMO welfare was supposed to be a helping hand,not a lifestyle choice

O M G !!! I find myself agreeing with Bama. There must be ice in HELL.
Known fact most people receiving unemployment compensation cannot find work until approximately 1 week after the last check is spent.

[iLIE]

Most people eventually come around to my way of thinking. 

[JoeyTurks]

What happened to the original topic?

What topic? 

I used to be part of a newsgroup where thread drift was an art form and the most massively drifting threads always - ALWAYS - ended up being about cats or food.

[misssalaska2000]

I know these programs were started with the best of intentions and that there are truly needy recipients.  I don't think we need to completely cut these programs, but our gov't should investigate every applicant and prosecute fraud.  As long as we foster a sense of entitlement rather than a sense of accomplishment, this will get worse and worse IMO.  I'm all for helping single moms whose husbands abandoned them, the "truly handicapped," and the elderly, but these others lose all self-respect which leads to their loss of respect for all others.  This in turn destroys any inhibition to separating you from your money by any means possible. 

<opens self up to attacks from bleeding hearts>

I've always been a bleeding heart, but the more I hang out here, and the more I see the sense of entitlement that comes with public assistance, the more I tend to shift to a more conservative view.

I think larger corporation should be taxed at a higher rate... I mean, the US is all about making it big, so when you do, don't you think you owe something to the country whose market system ALLOWED you to make it big?  It's the least you can do.

In turn, however, that extra taxation should NOT be used to put EVERYONE on welfare, or support MORE food stamp recipents.  It should be used to overhaul the educational system so that our citizens are becoming educated enough to be a productive member of society.  (Like a school system that prepares you for university, or a trade school... you apprentice from 16-18 to learn a trade.)

Teach a man to fish.  Don't just hand him the damn fish.

[Mtnchick]

I know these programs were started with the best of intentions and that there are truly needy recipients.  I don't think we need to completely cut these programs, but our gov't should investigate every applicant and prosecute fraud.  As long as we foster a sense of entitlement rather than a sense of accomplishment, this will get worse and worse IMO.  I'm all for helping single moms whose husbands abandoned them, the "truly handicapped," and the elderly, but these others lose all self-respect which leads to their loss of respect for all others.  This in turn destroys any inhibition to separating you from your money by any means possible. 

<opens self up to attacks from bleeding hearts>

I've always been a bleeding heart, but the more I hang out here, and the more I see the sense of entitlement that comes with public assistance, the more I tend to shift to a more conservative view.

I think larger corporation should be taxed at a higher rate... I mean, the US is all about making it big, so when you do, don't you think you owe something to the country whose market system ALLOWED you to make it big?  It's the least you can do.

In turn, however, that extra taxation should NOT be used to put EVERYONE on welfare, or support MORE food stamp recipents.  It should be used to overhaul the educational system so that our citizens are becoming educated enough to be a productive member of society.  (Like a school system that prepares you for university, or a trade school... you apprentice from 16-18 to learn a trade.)

Teach a man to fish.  Don't just hand him the damn fish.

Here's what happens when you tax people/corporations who make more at a higher rate - they leave. I know at least 20 people I've worked with who have left the US due to the high taxation. Several took their businesses right along with them. I know at least 100 more who have their business offshore even though they live in the states.

More money into the social welfare programs isn't the answer, IMO. There's enough money. The answer is to get people OUT of the social welfare system. We have dozens of illegal aliens working in chicken processing plants using stolen/borrowed/whatever SS#s so the company isn't saving a dime by having them work there. But they are there because no one else wants the job. The government has made it more attractive to stay at home than work.

[misssalaska2000]

The government has made it more attractive to stay at home than work.

OMG, yes!  I was home sick last week watching an episode of "True Life" on MTV.  This particular episode was entitled "I live in the Projects."  The one that caught my attention was about a single mom w/ two kids.  She actually said, "If I go back to work, I'd have to put my kids in daycare, so I wouldn't make as much money as I do now on welfare."

That blew me out of the water.  Her ONLY redeeming quality (after that statement) is that she was going to night school to become a nurse.

But what do you do?  I can't blame her... if she makes less working, why would she want to?  On that note, Is there a time limit to how long one can be on welfare?

As for your taxation argument, I agree... companies WOULD leave.  But I'm not saying we should rip the companies off.  They should be charged a nominal fee for operating in the US.  Close the loopholes that allow LARGE corporations to pay nearly NO taxes, and fine the companies who cheat their way out of taxes!

Social programs... I agree... we need to lessen the funding, but provide a better education system (none of this archaic method of learning) so that we produce good and sensible citizens.

And for the love of god... legalize the ganga so that our overcrowded prisons are given a little breathing room.  (And then tax the hell out of it.)